The Scrimba Podcast

Alex Booker (00:00):
Hello coders. Welcome to The Scrimba Podcast. On this weekly show, I speak with successful developers about their advice on learning to code and getting your first junior developer job. Today, I'm joined by Tom Hirst who is a freelance developer with equally excellent marketing skills. In my opinion, Tom only happens to be a freelance WordPress developer. In other words, many years ago, Tom decided to specialize in a particular technology because he realized that when you specialize, you attract more customers, and I liken it to going to a restaurant where the menu is six pages long. When you see that you have no confidence they do any of those food items well, whereas if they have one focused menu, you're like, "Yeah, they only do those. They practice it every day, and they can reasonably get fresh produce. Yummy."

Alex Booker (00:50):
If you want to become a freelancer, clients have a similar mentality, I learned from Tom, perhaps with less emphasis on fresh produce. So Tom decided to focus and has been really successful since. If you want to become an employee, and your goal is to become a junior developer, there is still a lot you can learn from Tom about positioning yourself, putting yourself out there, building a personal website that works for you. And honestly, I didn't ask specifically, but if Tom can get something like six clients a year, I'm sure his advice can help you in your journey to get one employment contract.

Alex Booker (01:24):
By the way, is crazy listening to Tom because he sounds so confident and outgoing, and yet when I asked him, "Are you an outgoing person, man, you must be, right? He was like, "No, I'm an introvert." It all just goes to show you can fake it until you make it. And with that said, let's get into it.

Alex Booker (01:41):
Tom, welcome to The Scrimba Podcast. It's so great to have you.

Tom Hirst (01:45):
Thanks for having me, Alex. I'm excited for our chat.

Alex Booker (01:47):
Your website, I think is about as good as it gets without going crazy with CSS and SVG animations and things. It's clean, it's fast, you highlight your skills, your work, your experiences. You've appeared on things like podcasts and you highlight your personality by featuring your Instagram and stuff. And then you also give customers really clear ways to take action and contact you. It's obvious, this website must have taken a while to build, why was it so important to you to get your website right?

Tom Hirst (02:17):
Think that having a personal website in 2021 for anyone that wants to make it in any walk of life really is just essential. And I think that I, luckily, figured this out pretty early on in my career so I've always been obsessed with crafting my own personal website, the design, the development, the marketing, the copy, everything. And I think it's important to me because I just like to present myself in the best light. I want the most people to be able to find me through the least effort really. You can reach so many people by being online and posting content regularly, having clear offers and things like that, compared to handing flyers out in your local area.

Alex Booker (02:58):
Are you someone who's always been tweaking and iterating on your portfolio, it's almost never done? Or did you sit down one day and said, "Okay, I've been doing this for a while. I'm going to apply everything I've learned and just nail it this time."?

Tom Hirst (03:11):
I think, at the very beginning, 12 years ago, I was exactly like that. I was just always tinkering, it was never perfect, I was never happy. But I think nowadays I'm more of a big version kind of person where I'll sprint on something. So the current iteration of my site's probably the fifth major version, but that's been up for, man, it must be two or three years now, and I don't really have to do that many major changes to it now, I just add new pages using the templates and the modular system that I've set out for myself.

Tom Hirst (03:42):
So yeah, I think at the beginning, definitely I was in that camp where I would just stress about perfecting everything, font, spacing, and things like that. But then as I've got a little bit older and deeper into my career, I've realized that that stuff doesn't really matter so much, it's more about the messaging and making sure that you get the content out there and your perspective across to people who might be interested in working with you.

Alex Booker (04:02):
I was keen to start the podcast this way because I want everybody listening to check out your website, I think is a really inspiring example. It's almost the finish line for a lot of people at the beginning aspire to. So I'll link that high up in the show notes. But to your point, I think it's interesting because I speak with lots of new developers, aspiring junior developers, aspiring freelancers, and they do sometimes subscribe to your school of thought, which is that you should have a website. But it can sometimes spin into something that becomes distracting, you spend so much time iterating and speaking on the website, when if your objective as to become a freelancer, there might be other things you could prioritize. So if new freelancers tend to prioritize creating a personal website, do you agree with that prioritization? Are there any kind of principles they should think about when getting this out the door to achieve success more quickly?

Tom Hirst (04:50):
I'm 100% behind starting with a personal website. It's worked so well for me, I can't alter from that train of thought. But one thing that I would say is to not over complicate it. Think about what the minimum viable version of your personal website can be and get it up as soon as possible. Start getting some authority on that domain. You could even just start with a homepage and then a blog, and then just create a really quick blog post about the technology that you used to create your personal website. And there you've got some content, you could probably get that up in a couple of days.

Tom Hirst (05:22):
So yeah, start small, is my advice, and don't think that you need to have everything perfect, like what I did in the beginning, don't think that you need to have 20 blog posts before you can launch, don't think that you need to offer 20 services, don't think that you need 30 landing pages. Just think, "Really all I need is a nice picture of myself, a sentence about what I do, and then maybe one blog post." And then you've got the ball rolling. And then from that momentum you can build out from there.

Alex Booker (05:48):
Yeah. Perfection is the enemy of progress, as they say.

Tom Hirst (05:51):
Exactly.

Alex Booker (05:51):
You mentioned authority, are you talking about domain authority within SEO? Can you talk about that little bit for anybody who doesn't know what it means?

Tom Hirst (06:00):
I'm not an expert at SEO, but I've learned a lot over building my personal website out and websites for clients over the years. And one of the things that you need in SEO is links. So what I mean by trying to build like domain authority is just getting some link juice as soon as you can really. So get your website up, get it submitted to Google, get Google crawling it, make sure that everything's fine, make sure that you're not blocking Google in any way or any other search robots.

Tom Hirst (06:22):
And then, like I said before, just drop a really simple blog post and send it to people, try and do a bit of hustling really for exposure, just say, "Look, I've written this blog post, I've built it in WordPress." You could reach out to some people in the WordPress community, "Do you want to take a look at my thing?" And you might end up getting a few links from that because that might be valuable to their audience too. The more links that you get, the model authority that your website will have, and that will stand you in good stead over the longterm.

Tom Hirst (06:51):
And another good tactic for this really is podcast appearances like this one today, I'm sure you'll give me a link for doing this interview. So that's something else that people can tap into. So yeah, that's one of the main things I've learned about SEO from all my friends in the space is that links matter.

Alex Booker (07:05):
These backlinks and internal links, they are enabling Google to rank you more highly when people search for things like WordPress freelancer. And then you also have dedicated landing pages, the title is literally WordPress consultants, and then you've got freelance [inaudible 00:07:19] developer, which is that has to be a high value keyword. But because of those backlinks, you can rank more highly. Have you found success like way? Oh, and I should just mention as well that I totally agree with your advice to start thinking about this early because it takes a long time. If you want to influence Google, it doesn't happen in a matter of weeks, or frankly months, it's typically like quarters, if not years, honestly, depending on your activities. But yeah, you've been doing it for a while, how has success looked like for you?

Tom Hirst (07:46):
Yeah, SEO's definitely a marathon, not a sprint. And that's why I always advise that people, if you're wanting to make a living online, get your website up early and just start getting that authority that I mentioned before. But yeah, to answer your question, I mean, that's been a big part of my tactics, really. Obviously my expertise starts and ends really with WordPress, I do a lot of WordPress stuff. I've branched out a little bit more into the headless side of things like Next.js and things like that, that you mentioned as well.

Tom Hirst (08:14):
But yeah, one of the main tactics for me right at the beginning was to focus in just on a specific type of client and just create a landing page that was super specific to them. What I mean by that is using tools like [inaudible 00:08:25] to see what people in this space were actually searching far. And the main keyword, really, my field for freelance WordPress developer was freelance WordPress developer. And I just made my landing page completely tailored to that. So the H1 tag, freelance WordPress developer. The caption under my picture, freelance WordPress developer. Plenty of text mentioning in that key word. But not just stuffing the keyword for stuffing the keyword's sake, actually for telling the story about my experience, who I've worked and things like that, and just getting it in where it feels natural. And yeah, the single service landing page tactic, as I call it, has worked really well for me.

Alex Booker (09:03):
But when you say single service, you mean focused on a particular technology, right? Like WordPress or Next.js?

Tom Hirst (09:09):
Yeah, it could be a technology, it could be a specific industry like hairdressers, or dentists, or whatever. It could be a locale even. Let's say that you want to be the web designer in your local town, it could be Web Design Barnsley, where I'm from, you could try and optimize for that keyword. What I'm trying to say by single service landing page is make it evidently clear that this is the service that you are an expert in, and these are the people that you want to sell our service to.

Alex Booker (09:35):
If you are enjoying this episode of The Scrimba Podcast, please do us at Scrimba a favor and recommend this episode, or the whole show to your friends. Word of mouth is the single best way to support a podcast that you like so thanks in advance. Next week, I'm joined by a Scrimba student named Dan from Australia who is following The Frontend Developer Career Path. This is our career path for developers looking to go from not knowing any code to becoming a hireable web developer. And towards the tail end of that course, he managed to transition successfully from an air conditioning tech to now becoming a frontend developer.

Dan (10:14):
It was a strange feeling, a strange feeling going, "I can leave my job. I can leave the job that I hate." Yeah, to put it simply, I hated my job, and now I'm moving into something that I've been spending the last seven months dreaming of, and I've made it.

Alex Booker (10:30):
That's next Tuesday on The Scrimba Podcast. We release episodes every week, like clockwork so make sure you subscribe to see it in your feed and support the show. Back to Tom Hirst.

Alex Booker (10:42):
I think we've thrown a bunch of things out there, we're talking about portfolios and keywords and things like that, but I strongly believe it's all related because now what we're talking about is specialization and finding a niche, which is something I think you're not only good at identifying, but you're disciplined in executing because whenever we talk about narrowing down, I think it naturally leads to an anxiety like, "Oh, well, if I'm focusing so heavily on hairdressers, what if I miss out on an opportunity to build a website for a football club?" Or something like that. It kind of naturally leads to this FOMO, and when you're new, you're often dabbling with a lot of different technologies as well so if you commit to WordPress, you're like, "Oh, what if a new amazing technology comes about? I feel as though I've already boxed myself in." How do you think about specialization?

Tom Hirst (11:25):
I think specialization at the beginning of your career is one of the smartest things that you can do. And if you can stick to something and the same message for a long time, you're just constantly building equity in that for your personal brand. So for instance, over the last 12 years when people think of a freelance WordPress developer, a lot of the time they're going to think of me. But I mean, as my career has progressed, I also think that you can be a specialist in your marketing and more of a generalist, really.

Tom Hirst (11:53):
And what I mean by that is obviously at the beginning of my career, I was just constantly learning how to code. I was learning more about how to program in PHP and JavaScript, and that was my focus, but then I'm the older that I've got I've started doing educational products, I started learning about marketing. I've got a little interest in crypto and things like that.

Tom Hirst (12:09):
But on my website where I want to attract freelance Wordpress clients, I'm a freelance web developer. So I think that the formal kind of thing can be eased by that. You can still be a specialist in your marketing, in your front facing marketing that people come to you for, and you can still pursue other interests. You don't have to just sit and coding WordPress PHP for the rest of your life, it's a marketing tactic, not really a lifestyle, and I think that that's where you can cure a lot of that FOMO that comes into niching down.

Alex Booker (12:38):
You're spot on. And it applies to things like LinkedIn and resumes and cover letters and things as well. I think sometimes when people write a cover letter, they wants to explain their life story and say, "These are my other interests." And they want to go as wide as possible. But all you're really meant to do is tailor that cover letter to the specific job. And if you're looking for freelance work, it's the same principle, it doesn't define you just because you don't write about all your interests on a particular page, or on a CV, doesn't mean you don't, or are not allowed to have them. And equally if you need to pivot, that's also okay, you can change later, although you might get the best results when you show up consistently for a long time. Do you agree it takes discipline to employ that kind of strategy?

Tom Hirst (13:17):
Yeah, it's tough because shiny object syndrome is a real thing. I think that everybody goes through it, everyone's got other interests in their niche, a plumber's not just a plumber. It's kind of what we touched on before, it does take an incredible amount of discipline to stick to your guns with your marketing tactics and the niche that you choose, and the ideal client that you target. But I will guarantee if you stick to it for a year, two years, you will see results. I owe the majority of my [inaudible 00:13:48] success to niching down to just taking on WordPress jobs.

Tom Hirst (13:53):
And even then, there's always niches within niches as well. Over the last 12 years, WordPress has just grown exponentially. Just becoming a freelance WordPress developer now might not even be narrow enough for someone just starting out, you might have to go even narrower than that. So for instance, to give you an example, there's like page builders, like Divi and things like that, they're really popular, they've got their own ecosystem. You could even go even further down the rabbit hole and attach yourself to that kind of thing in your marketing. So yeah, I think niching down is just a incredibly smart marketing strategy and something that you shouldn't be afraid of because you can't be everything to everyone.

Alex Booker (14:26):
Yeah. And finding an existing platform like Shopify and building on top of it is a great way to specialize as well. And even within that, you could be the specialist for clothing retailers, and then you can add... You've built sizing features and grids and things before, and this kind of knowledge and experience will just stand out to customers within that niche. We can't say it because we're British, but the Americans like to say riches in niches.

Tom Hirst (14:50):
Yeah. We don't get the rhyme.

Alex Booker (14:53):
Let's go back to the beginning slightly because I remember reading on your portfolio that you started freelancing a while ago, right? You've been doing this for about a decade, if I'm not mistaken.

Tom Hirst (15:02):
Yeah, since 2009.

Alex Booker (15:04):
How did you find clients when you got started? And by the way, do you think those same acquisition channels would work today?

Tom Hirst (15:10):
I left university and I kind of just realized that I wasn't really fit to be an employee. And I always wanted to do my own things. I had lots of ideas, I liked building and things like that. But obviously you need clients, and I was thinking, "Where am I going to get these clients from? I don't want a job, but [inaudible 00:15:29] clients." So the first thing that I did was just tell everyone I knew about the skills that I had. For me that was WordPress, I was getting really good at WordPress. I'd done a few sites at university as part of one of the modules, I'd done a site for my uncle's band. My dad was an accountant and I was talking to him about doing a website for them. The people that would give me a star essentially.

Tom Hirst (15:49):
And I said to my dad, I said, "Look, you're in business. If anybody mentioned websites and in particular WordPress, then put us right in touch." And I just planted that seed with everyone that I already knew. And I think that a lot of people, when they start out, they fail to understand how many people that they already know who might be able to use their services. Whether that's web development, whether that's graphic design, whether that's copywriting, whatever it is, we're in a digital age and these skills are just useful to pretty much everyone who's out there.

Tom Hirst (16:21):
So yeah, that's how I got the star. And whether that's still relevant now, 100%, yes. Once you've exhausted your family, you could start in your local town just knocking on doors, there's businesses everywhere that will need services or freelancers. But yeah, how things might have changed from 2009 to 2021, I would say that LinkedIn and Twitter and things like that are more powerful and more realistic avenues now than what they were when I started. Obviously I've built a decent size audience on Twitter for a slightly different reason, but I think that this would also work for freelancers as well. I think there's a lot of people who are doing good things sharing what they know [inaudible 00:16:57] people who are just starting out, doing the 100 Days of Code hashtag and things like that.

Tom Hirst (17:02):
And I think you can make some really great connections from tapping into that, and this could lead to sharing work between yourselves. Maybe you will get busy one time and you want to share with someone that you've met on Twitter and vice versa. So yeah, networking essentially is everything, and I think that the main transition from when I started to now is that it's more online than perhaps it was when I first started, when it was a bit more physical and who you knew within your local proximity.

Alex Booker (17:29):
Is it fair to say that you're quite an outgoing person, Tom?

Tom Hirst (17:32):
No. I'm the world's most... I can hide being an introvert so well, people have told me. But yeah, I'm really not outgoing whatsoever, I'm incredibly introverted.

Alex Booker (17:44):
That's actually impressive then because I speak to a lot of new freelancers who, honestly, it's a bit like dating in the modern day and stuff as well, it's a lot harder to go up to a person and start speaking to them on the street than it is to use an app. And I think even though it's a bit of a silly comparison, it's also true that the barriers to going on something like Upwork or Fiverr is a lot less, you put yourself out there far less, it's less daunting, but equally, you're not going to create those same connections as you described, which I agree are absolutely vital. But what would you say to new freelancers, should they consider websites like Upwork and Fiverr? Are there anything they should be aware of?

Tom Hirst (18:20):
In my honest experience, I've never had a job from either of those, and when I started, I was on them both. I think, this is my philosophy that it's a far better longterm strategy to start building equity in yourself right away rather than just jumping on these platforms and expecting projects to fall into your lap. I'm not saying that Upwork and Fiverr wouldn't give you a start, it certainly would in some instances, but alongside that, I would do you know what we talked about at the top of the conversation, start building your own personal brand, start building equity in yourself, start making connections, get your personal website up, be active on Twitter, sort your LinkedIn profile out. I think all of those things in the long-term, you'll come back five years later and thank yourself for massively. So yeah, I wouldn't focus too much on just what job board I can be on, I'd be thinking about more, how can I get people to start coming to me?

Alex Booker (19:10):
I have to say, I couldn't agree more. I will play the devil's advocate when I say that a lot of people, they want freelance work today, or tomorrow, or in a few weeks, and that investment, it takes a while to pay off. And I think that's where the allure of these talent websites come in because you don't need a network, or a reputation really, you can skip the need for a personal website because similar to how you can use a CMS to create content more easily, they provide the interface and things like that. But on the flip side, it can feel like a race to the bottom sometimes when you're working in a sort of country with a lot of money because you're being outbid by people working in countries with a much lower cost of living. I think it's quite a common dilemma people have.

Tom Hirst (19:51):
There's definite value. If you need money right away, then these platforms are probably going to be your quickest route to it if you are literally starting on day one. I'm not completely against these platforms, but what I would also suggest is that you start building that brand equity alongside that as well. Carve out some time for your own business, for your own business development because you can't grow. If you're only working on the business of other people, you'll never grow your own business. While I think that these things can definitely get you a start, and there is value there, start building equity in yourself as well.

Alex Booker (20:19):
What would you do as a new developer, Tom, to increase a client's confidence that you can do the job even though you might not have the most reviews and past work to demonstrate, how do you overcome that?

Tom Hirst (20:32):
I think for developers, we've got one thing that's really in our favor and that's open source and side projects and things like that. So there's a lot of self-initiated things that you can do that build trust. And obviously the classic trust signals are testimonials and client list and portfolio of real client work. But I appreciate sometimes you've not got that right at the beginning. I would definitely suggest contributing to open source. You can get a lot of attention by doing that. You can gain a lot of credibility, a lot of authority in your field. And just show that you're an active builder, show that you're a doer and not just a talker. People hire the plumber that stood next to his van with a pipe in his hand, they don't hire the plumber that's just on LinkedIn, just talking nonsense. They want to see that you can actually do the job so show, don't tell.

Alex Booker (21:18):
Right. Yeah. I was thinking, I've never encountered an influencer that's a plumber, but now I think about it, there was a bloke who won The Apprentice, like a UK Apprentice one year, and he's a plumber. [inaudible 00:21:29] a good example.

Tom Hirst (21:30):
Yeah, I was just thinking of him. That's exactly who I was thinking of.

Alex Booker (21:32):
Okay. So I think what you just described is the hard skills, show that you demonstrate that you've got the skills to do the job, "I can build this page. I can make it responsive. I can connect it to a database. I'm competent in that regard." But frankly, as a client, that's the bat minimum so even on a phone call, or to interact with the client, it's really about lowering risk, like, "Who is going to get the job done, who is not going to waste time, who is not going to leave me high and dry?" And sometimes, honestly, it's worth it to clients to pay a bit more because the cost of getting it wrong is a lot higher than the cost of getting it right. I actually don't know how I would overcome that if I were a new freelancer, is the answer simply that you just have to work really cheap for a while until you build those trust factors, as you described, the testimonials and things like that?

Tom Hirst (22:19):
I think when you begin in any field, you're not going to earn the same as what someone who has been doing it for 10 years will, that's just a fact of life, but I think what I would suggest in this regard in terms of building trust is soft skills can take you a long way. If you will do what you say you're going to do when you say you're going to do it, you're ahead of a lot of people. And I think that a lot of people starting out fail to realize that, and they don't start because they're a bit scared that they're not going to have to stand out. But honestly, if you can reply to emails within, I don't know, a couple of hours, you're ahead of a lot of people.

Tom Hirst (22:50):
Because number one, you've got the people who are already rolling, it's going to take them ages, they're probably booked up anywhere, and then you've got the people who are just kind of like playing at it, and they're not really doing it properly. If you would take things seriously and you get really to the point, email replies up to clients, you show that you're organized, and you show that you're going to turn up on time. When you arrange a meeting, you're there on time, you're not two minutes late, three minutes late. All these things, you can do a lot to build trust without having necessarily direct experience.

Alex Booker (23:21):
I like that a lot, the things you're describing, they seem quite small, but they can have a very big impact. And as you speak, my brain's spinning a little bit because I've posted on Upwork, and depending on the job, you get a huge influx of job applications, which, if you're listening, that could be deterring, it's like, "Oh, I'm one of a hundred or something." But most of them suck, most of the applications are so lazy, man, they're like, "Hey, can I learn more about the project?" I'm like, "I'm not going to spend 20 minutes explaining the project to you, there's a brief, go and read it." Or if there's someone saying it's a copy and paste template, and it's really obvious, it's like pretty much a no go out of the door, even if they have the skills because I can see from their reputation, they have the skills, but I personally want people to show they care about the project, and that they care enough to show up on time, and to be prompt in their response, and things like that.

Alex Booker (24:10):
And especially at the beginning, and especially if they don't already have a reputation, and especially if they're the people coming to me. And it's not about me having a firm philosophy on it, it's just kind of the nature of websites like Upwork, you are in a position where a lot of people are applying for the job, and you're really going to go with the people who stand out because they look interested, they communicate clearly, and they're excited to get on a call and learn about the project because... Not every time, but a lot of projects that we hire freelancers to work on are exciting projects, we want to share that with somebody and let that enthusiasm propel the project through.

Tom Hirst (24:39):
That just goes back to one of the earlier points that we were talking about. You mentioned that these people are applying for your ad, they're coming to you, not the other way around. And that's a big factor of what I was saying before about building brand and building equity in yourself. And going down the field of becoming an expert in a certain topic, or area, or vertical, or horizontal, whatever it is. When people come to you for work, it's so much easier to convert the sale, number one, but also the projects and the relationships kind of go easier in my experience, and that was always my tactic, get people to come to me, and then my life will be easier.

Alex Booker (25:20):
I want to come back to some of the actual tactics and linear advice. I think this has been a fantastic episode so far. Probably when you're freelancing, something will go wrong at some point. Maybe it's a rite of passage for freelancers that at least one project will go bad, you won't get paid, you'll over promise and under deliver despite your best intentions, you just got the estimate wrong. These days, Tom, you're an absolute pro, but do you have any bad experiences from the early days that stand out, and what would you do differently with the benefit of hindsight?

Tom Hirst (25:50):
The one that really stands out. I mean, I'm pretty good at reading people so I've been looking to avoid a lot of bad relationships, I always try and take people on face value, give them the benefit of the doubt. But sometimes there will be things that happen in the early conversations that you think, "Yeah, this is not going to work." But I guess one of the regrets that I do have from the early days in my freelancing career is when I first started with my first client, I kind of got a little bit locked in because I didn't really... I basically sold all my time to them and I never saved any time for myself and my own development and reaching out to other people and things like that, which made it very difficult for me to raise my price and maybe say no to some of the projects that they were giving me that I didn't really find interesting. I didn't have much choice because I kind of got locked in.

Tom Hirst (26:35):
So with the benefit of hindsight, what I would have done is all the things that we've kind of talked about already way earlier. And that's why I bang on it all the time with a personal website and things like that because in that situation, once I started getting other leads through the door, it kind of shifted the power really from them to me where I could say, "Look, I've got this other client that will offer me more money. I love working with you, I'm really appreciative of the start, but obviously would you be able to match this price?" And it gives you that power. So yeah, with hindsight, I would market myself more often and I'd do it more frequently and earlier.

Alex Booker (27:12):
I just want to use this opportunity to put this out there before we continue with the rest of the interview, which is that you have written a book, one or two I think, about freelancing. You've [inaudible 00:27:22] lots of articles and you have some Twitter threads, I'm not going to try and dive into every inch of how to get started as a freelancer because I feel your book probably covers a lot of those things, can you just describe it for us and let people know what they can learn?

Tom Hirst (27:34):
Yeah, sure. So I've got a few products now, but the one that you're probably talking about is the first one that I released last year which is called 10 Steps to Becoming a Better Freelancer. And it's essentially my manifesto of how I got from where I was at the beginning to where I am now. I kind of talk about all aspects of freelance life so all the things that you need to take into consideration on the business side, but also to live a healthy life alongside being a freelancer. The freelance game offers so many opportunities for you to live such a fulfilling life alongside making a decent amount of money. So tap into that and don't become a workaholic for being a workaholic's sake, use that flexibility to your advantage, take care of yourself, spend time with your family, and things like that. So, yeah, it's a real top to bottom manifesto really, and it's free so if anybody wants to grab it, they can.

Alex Booker (28:27):
That's free?

Tom Hirst (28:28):
Yeah. That's the free ebook that I did. Yeah.

Alex Booker (28:30):
I was going to ask you for a Scrimba promo code or something, but [inaudible 00:28:34] that everybody's getting for free, that's wicked. I'm glad you did it because when you read the chapter list, it sounds like a little treasure hunt, there's a lot to be found in there, I think. So definitely link to that and leave your website in the show notes. And as we kind of close up here, I have a couple of questions then about the chapters which are understanding pricing deeply, and becoming a negotiator. It's clearly an area that you have a lot of expertise in so I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about it.

Alex Booker (28:58):
I listened to your interview of Chris [Do 00:29:00], I think that's his name, and you mentioned about pricing yourself relative to the competition. I think that when you're a new freelancer, you lack confidence, you don't really know where you sit relative to the competition, probably you don't even have enough experience to truly comprehend the scope of a project and that can be dangerous. Maybe it requires some research and planning, AKA, discovery. That's the kind of thing that new freelancers feel very awkward charging for. How would you recommend someone price themselves when they're new to the freelance developer market?

Tom Hirst (29:32):
Good question. I think the first thing that you really want to do is make friends who are in the same position as you are, and discuss price. Start becoming comfortable about talking about money because then that confidence that you said a lot of people lack will start to come. And then experiment like crazy, find what your market worth is at that moment in time, but also consider value at all times. So what I mean by that is let's say that a client comes to you and they say, "We need this by next week." That's pretty quick, and if you can facilitate that, then that's valuable to that client. So would you charge the same as what you would for someone who needs it [inaudible 00:30:10] in two months? Probably not. You need to be savvy, really, to what the project requires and what the client will find valuable in the scenario. So that's what I mean by taking everything on a project by project basis as opposed to just saying, "I charge two grand for every single website under the sun." You need to consider a lot more variables than that.

Alex Booker (30:30):
So you're kind of describing a rush fee fair where if they need that quickly, you can charge them a bit more for it?

Tom Hirst (30:35):
If that's what you want to call it, but there's other ways to gauge value as well. So let's think about if you are the go-to person within your expertise area, then you're going to be able to charge more than if you are doing 10 different things. And it goes back to the niching point again.

Alex Booker (30:51):
You see to be quite against pricing per hour and, yeah, I see your reasons entirely. When you're a new freelancer, is it worth pricing per hour? Is there a trade off there, or is it just a no-go in your opinion?

Tom Hirst (31:04):
My main mantra is that you should consider value no matter what methodology that you're using, whether you're doing it by the hour, by the day, fixed price, whatever. But yeah, in terms of in the beginning, when you're starting out, I don't think it's the end of the world if you need to charge hourly to get a job through the door because the credibility that you will get from those projects and that experience will lead you then into other pricing methodologies, which will be more profitable. So I'm not completely against hourly billing, but what I would say is try and move away from it as quick as you can.

Alex Booker (31:35):
Tom, thank you so much.

Tom Hirst (31:37):
Thanks a lot, Alex.

Alex Booker (31:40):
That was Tom Hirst who's links you can find in the episodes show notes along with timestamps and links from the show. Also, if you go to the Scrimba blog, we include a complete transcript in case you want to take notes or look something up later.

Alex Booker (31:53):
Coming up next time on The Scrimba Podcast, Dan, a Scrimba user from Australia joins me to talk about how he recently managed to transition from a job he "hated" to now working as a junior developer. That's next Tuesday on the weekly Scrimba Podcast so make sure you subscribe in your podcast app of choice so you see it in your feed and support the show. This episode was edited by [inaudible 00:32:17], and I'm your host, Alex Booker. You can follow me on Twitter @BookerCodes where I share highlights from the podcast and other news by Scrimba, see you next week.